I have to wonder whether all the badasses at DefCon who outed the reporter would have been so gleeful and mob-like about it if, say, the reporter had been male. Or even a female Federal agent, presumably packing heat.
Maybe Ryan was right.
Next entry: Introducing the concept of application security.
Previous entry: Platonic forms.
on 08/06 at 08:11 PM:Hoff, thanks for the first-person reporting. All I had to go on was the online reportage and the camera angles from the video, which admittedly didn’t show much in the way of depth (and therefore distance).
At the risk of turning this blog into something it’s not, I might venture that the equivalent of the “ditzy blonde” poke would be the “Dubya poke” 
Anyhoo ...
PS - Do you think Raven and/or Window will blog their side somewhere? I don’t know them, so I wouldn’t presume to ask them.
on 08/07 at 09:24 AM:No worries…the video does make it look “mobbish” but it wasn’t that bad.
In terms of Raven/Window, I suppose I could ask.
Also, I’m not discounting your point, just your example
I have 3 daughters…I can’t wait for the first time some idiot
attempts to exercise any form of misogyny or sexism. All I can
say is I hope they’ve practiced their ju jitsu takedown defense
/Hoff
on 08/07 at 10:01 AM:Indeed—that’s why my oldest girl takes martial arts, fencing, and science classes
on 08/07 at 02:56 PM:Touchy subject, and one I tend to try to avoid at all costs. I’ve seen both sides, where women are subjected to put-downs both spoken and unspoken, but also when they get special perks in a sort of feminist affirmative action. I try to stay in the middle of the road and accept people for who they are.
I thought the whole reporter issue was not necessarily a female thing, but rather one of deceitful reporting.
Then again, this IS Defcon, not a more reputable convention of professionals. There are plenty of kids and miscreants in attendance, and you can likely see who are the professionals and who are not.
I do have another story as I know one of the ladies that attended Defcon, but it isn’t appropriate to post here. Sadly, she also was met with derision and disbelief that she could be into security on her own and not either a girlfriend of an attendee or an escort. Still, she would certainly go back, and has maybe just become used to it, I dunno. Either way, I try to be thoughtful in how I deal with people…
on 08/08 at 08:19 AM:One of today’s slashdot articles seems to be more of the same…
http://hardware.slashdot.org/hardware/07/08/08/0029252.shtml
In general though, I think the tech industry is probably as gender neutral as you can get. Over the years I’ve worked for more women in IT (either directly or in my management chain of command) than my counterparts in R&D;or Manufacturing. Have I just been lucky or blind in that I haven’t really been aware of any blatant sexism?
on 08/08 at 08:31 AM:Interestingly enough, the most blatantly sexist place I ever worked was in the UK. Two women who worked for me were referred to by male staff in other groups as “the tall dark piece” and “the short blonde piece.“ I had to defend them from rude treatment more than once.
on 08/09 at 08:50 AM:The UK is atrocious for sexual innuendo, we invented the Carry On films for example. The problem is, probably BECAUSE of the Carry Ons, it’s all seen as “harmless fun”. I guess there’s a line, and calling someone “a piece” is some way over it in my opinion, because it’s obviously done to take someone’s status down, and would be said behind their back to other silly little boys. I’ve worked with people like that before, and it’s all posturing and bravado.
I think it does depend on things like, how well you know someone, your relationship to them in the office hierarchy, etc. but in general terms, publicly calling ANYONE something derogatory is out of order. For example I might call the sales guy here something rude related to him being from Wales, it is the staple of the English/Welsh relationship after all. But I would only do it gently, only to him, and not with venom. It is the intention which makes it racist/sexist, whatever else-ist.
If I were to do it in front of the rest of the sales team, making it clear that I was mre important and that he was my slave, that would be different. It’s not harmless fun when it isn’t harmless, or fun, and if you’re not sure of where you stand, you shouldn’t even think about voicing it. Sexism and racism are generally not going to be approved.
Having said that I wouldn’t mind so much if a woman referred to me as “a piece”, but then I’m 6 1/2 feet tall and 15 stone (and the rest!), people tend not to be that rude to me, or think that I’m a piece. Hmph. That’s biggist.
If you really want to experience bottom-pinching misogyny however, you should move to Spain. (That’s not why I came here by the way.)
I'm an IT security manager who has worked in various places around the world and in the US. If I told you more, well ... you know.
Given that I was there and watched from a few rows back as the entire thing unfolded, let me add some color.
Firstly, let’s make a distinction between those that “outed” the reporter versus those who followed her out and into the parking lot and heckled her.
Jeff Moss “outed” her. The room only erupted when Jeff established the fact that the reporter had, numerous times, refused to accept a press pass and was surreptitiously attempting to film people under false pretenses.
The reaction would have been the same were it a man instead of a woman.
To be clear, the DEFCON Goons escorted her—or more specifically followed her—after she ran from the room. Once outside, despite the fact that she complained people were “...making fun of [her]“ she was pretty calm and got to her car and drove off calmly and unobstructed. She laughed multiple times during the walk to her car and didn’t seem particularly worried for her safety.
The rest of the pack that followed her outside were rather tame if you ask me. Despite the snorty little giggles, guffaws and lame attempts at bad humor, I’d say they were rather well behaved given what I expected to see.
Now, I think the Lindsay Lohan comment was sexist, and I think they’d be hard pressed to come up with the male counterpart of the “ditzy blonde” poke which is what they were aiming for.
So, IMHO, since I was there, I’d suggest that the “mob” (which it wasn’t, BTW) would have been just as gleeful were the reporter a man or a federal agent…packing heat or not…they did nothing particularly harassing and kept their distance. I’ve seen celebrities and others literally mobbed and this wasn’t that scene.
Now, I also think that a comment I saw somewhere else was somewhat ironic inasmuch as it suggested that a group of hackers at the “CON” who belong to a culture that espouses not following the rules were pissed off when someone else decided not to follow theirs.
All’s fair in love and war, but let’s not make this more than it was… Ryan was right about other elements, but I don’t think it’s appropriate to twist his words to make a point he wasn’t…
I believe both Raven and Window were there…why don’t you ask them?
/Hoff